You took over the leadership of ENGIE at a particularly turbulent time, characterised by the energy transition and digital transformation. How is ENGIE being affected by these two trends?

First of all, you have to take a close look at the sector to properly understand what’s happening within it. Over the past ten years or so, there’s been a radical change, not initiated by technology, but by a growing sense of collective awareness that’s been around for a long time and started picking up speed at the instigation of great opinion leaders like Al Gore. Global warming is the first truly global challenge. It’s historic and, in my opinion, unequalled. In the case of global warming, any gesture made by any one individual has an impact on the world. This is incredibly powerful because it leads to a reinforced sense of solidarity. The underlying driver isn’t an innovation that came along one fine day by chance. No, it’s incredible determination, part of Europe for that matter. It was Europe that launched the movement, with massive support schemes for renewables which were hugely overpriced at the time. Solar power was 700 euros per MWh. It was exorbitant. Massive subsidies of public money set the ball rolling by promoting investment in technologies, which led to reductions in costs. Today, renewable technologies are starting to become competitive. In some areas, they are actually cheaper. In the Middle East, for example, they’re at 2.4 cents per KWh while gas is 5 US cents. So solar energy is half-price in a country where gas is already quite cheap. But in the case of solar, the challenge is to balance out production with consumption times, meaning solar needs to be combined with batteries. And so, sticking to the example of the Middle East, the price of solar plus battery reaches 9 US cents. But it’s falling; we were at 15 cents last year. All this to explain to you that we’re seeing the emergence of a world of what we at ENGIE call “three Ds”: “decarbonised”, “decentralised” and “digitalised”.

This trend towards decentralisation that you are talking about, the fact that we can now produce at home, must change things for an energy company…

This is very important in our metier. As you say, we think that a large portion of the energy consumed will be produced at the site of consumption, at home… It’s an extremely powerful movement. And studies predict that half of consumption will be produced on site. Of course, there’ll always be large power stations and large networks, but we will see increasing numbers of small installations with, for example, a solar panel, a battery and a micro-grid. This brings us to the third “D” for “digitalised”. These small systems are part of a completely digital world that will rely on technologies like the Internet of Things, data management, different types of software and algorithms.

Trends like these seem pretty positive from a social point of view, don’t they?

It’s very positive, not only for combatting global warming, but also for allowing access to energy in certain regions of the world, as these are flexible systems that can be installed quickly. In geopolitical terms, it’s very interesting because we’re heading towards a more balanced world. Today, the world’s energy is supplied by a small handful of countries. By exploiting these renewable sources, which are now more affordable, many countries will have the means to acquire energy independence, at least partially.

But all this represents a major challenge for energy companies. How do you see ENGIE evolving in this universe?

We hold a few very big competitive advantages over other players. We are the only ones who already have a foothold in the “small” world. Most energy companies operate large infrastructures, power stations, large networks … as do we. But they don’t have the means to develop small facilities easily. We do, because out of our 150,000 employees, 100,000 are already active in the service universe. They are on site. In the world of small systems, you have to be on site to install, maintain and operate them, and above all understand and meet the expectations of customers.

This ratio of two-thirds of employees in services… is it really something new?

We have focused on developing this activity for the last 10 years. It doesn’t happen just like that. It takes a certain momentum. Thanks to our presence in 70 countries, we have the ability to detect, in real time, anything that happens anywhere in the world. We want to be a leader of this movement because it is fundamentally positive, and it is a useful way of positioning ourselves that will allow us to progress faster.

Nevertheless, the face of the competition is completely different today, and you are now up against digital actors and start-ups. Is that difficult to apprehend for a group as big as yours?

It’s a real challenge, as you say. Our strategy is to focus on the activities we already have in that sector. We’re selling other assets, which gives us considerable resources: 15 billion euros’ worth of assets, in fact. And we’re reinvesting this money – or even more, since the investment plan is for 22 billion euros in three years – in the three professions at the heart of the transformation: gas, renewables and decentralised infrastructure. These are metiers that we already know, so it’s definitely not a leap into the void. We’re investing in our strengths. There’s a potential here that will fuel our growth in the years to come. And besides that, we are investing 1.5 billion euros in three years in new energy and digital technologies. For example hydrogen, a technology that is not yet economically viable, but very promising.

What is the impact of digital on your sector of activity and your company?

There’s a clear link between energy and digital. Take a building, for example. It has solar potential, because it’s exposed to the atmosphere 24 hours a day. But to create a complete system, you also need to install batteries and connect everything up to the lights of the building, to data centres, etc. Everything has to be kept constantly in balance, and the Internet of Things plays a crucial role in managing all this data. It lets you know if a light isn’t working, whether you need to plan for overconsumption at a given time in the data centres in case lots computers are connected simultaneously, etc. Also, you need software that will automatically manage all this, and ENGIE wants to be responsible for creating that software. ENGIE’s expertise is precisely about being an integrator. We’re not a manufacturer of equipment, solar panels or batteries. And we won’t become one. Our expertise lies in designing and integrating complete systems. The same thing has to be done in the decentralised world, and here, software is the centrepiece. If you let someone else do the work, you’re opening the door to outsourcing and integration is no longer done on your site. You become a supplier of these people, which would be a risky situation to be in. If you leave it to someone else, you’ve lost… So, for ENGIE, the ability to produce software that’s capable of precisely matching the needs of the customer has become vital!

So this is the context in which you created ENGIE Digital?

Yes, this is our in-house software factory. For this, we have surrounded ourselves with the best players in the sector who work with our internal experts. For cybersecurity, we teamed up with Thales. For the design of the software, we chose Accenture and its subsidiary Fjord, etc. When our teams need to write a piece of software, they go to ENGIE Digital.

Were you afraid of being “uberized” and seeing digital companies muscle in on these specialised niches?

There’s a real risk, but we have a head start. Software is a language that conveys expertise. Of course, you have to learn how to code, but it’s easier to learn how to code than to learn about the energy business. And then, our strength lies in our customer portfolio. We know them, we’re on their territory. Not so for the digital companies.

Digital technology has also made it possible to develop new uses and new modes of consumption, such as the collaborative economy. One day, individual producers could sell their surplus to their neighbours. Are you anticipating developments of this kind?

It’s a model we are working on. Here at ENGIE, we’ve decided to approach innovation in two ways. First, incremental innovation. For example, we’re working on the next generation of solar panels with Heliatek, a company we have invested in. They develop solar panels no longer based on silicon but on organic molecules. This results in more and more transparent films that can be fitted onto the facades of buildings. Incidentally, we installed some on the facade of our research centre, ENGIE Laborelec. The other approach to innovation is based on the needs of the customer. This is what you mentioned just now, and what we at ENGIE refer to as “energy communities”. It’s not a pipe dream, but some questions have yet to be answered: how would this kind of community be governed? What means of payment would be used? How would it interact with traditional networks? We are associated with a pilot project in Brooklyn. This energy communities model could be just a few years away from seeing the light of day. But we need to see if it’s viable, and if so, under what conditions.

For ENGIE Digital, you associated yourselves with large groups. But you’re also getting closer to start-ups. How important is this for a giant like ENGIE?

It’s very important, because in the world of start-ups there’s a certain strength, a belief that things are possible, a certain state of mind that is extremely valuable. Obviously, these aspects need to be married – intelligently – to the forces of a large company with the necessary means and ability to broaden their scope. We can give them access to our customer portfolio, to new markets. So we have to look for the right marriage. Either we form a partnership, or we take a stake in a venture-capital type model, or we acquire them. We work on every kind of model, depending on the subject. But all this activity does us a lot of good.

What is your approach to working with these small companies while preserving the start-up spirit?

These entrepreneurs must not be deprived of their capacity to make decisions; it’s what makes them tick. If you drown them in corporate processes, you kill them off directly. This is an issue that needs to be addressed. It’s complicated and our experiences haven’t all been positive, to be honest with you. But I think we’re making fairly good progress by dealing directly with this difficulty, which is one faced by all big organisations.

And where are you in this race for unicorns that you say you want to help emerge?

This is just the beginning. But I suspect that in some areas, like hydrogen, there is potential for lots of business. As there is in green mobility. Transport remains 90% based on petroleum and its derivatives. It’s a considerable market, and appropriate business models need to be developed. What’s more, through the Dutch company EV-Box we acquired, we have become No. 1 in electric charging stations for light vehicles with 45,000 stations installed and a very ambitious development plan. So yes, there are unicorns in sight. It’s up to us to find the right business model.

Have these developments and this increasing presence in digital prompted ENGIE to recruit new types of skills unprecedented for an energy company?

Yes. There are entire domains where we’ve gone looking for skills externally, especially in “data science” and more widely in the field of digital, that’s evident. From a technical point of view, few skills need to be found outside the organisation. But HR is more of a cultural issue than a technical one. It’s quite clear that managing an integrated system inside a building and operating a large power station are two radically different activities. In decentralised services, you have to adapt quickly, to be agile and client-focused. It’s a more entrepreneurial culture too. So you need to be quick about making decisions and be on the lookout for technological evolutions. This is the issue at stake. Two thirds of our employees already possess this culture. Now we have to make sure that this culture permeates the whole company.

There’s a lot of talk about a new innovation that could turn the world of work entirely on its head: Artificial Intelligence (AI). Are you expecting it to transform a group like ENGIE as well?

Yes, artificial intelligence will penetrate this sector just like all the others. I don’t see anything different about energy in this respect. As far as the technologies I have mentioned are responsible for this major shift we are experiencing, artificial intelligence will affect us like everyone else. But yes, of course, these are subjects we need to master.

In the future, do you think that companies will be managed by a handful of humans and a lot of robots?

Artificial intelligence will replace jobs. Without a doubt. On the other hand, our sector is an industry where, overall, the number of employees is increasing. Because this decentralised world is very “people intensive”. ENGIE will increase its number of employees over time. That’s certain. You need people to install these systems, people to check that they work, and so on. It will be a while before we start using robots to install all this equipment. So it’s a sector that will create jobs, but the distribution of those jobs will be different. The main challenge for us is to promote internal mobility so that people can adapt their knowhow and position themselves where the need is. That’s why we are investing heavily in training: 300 million euros in three years. Training remains the most important tool to support the internal mobility of our employees.